Mallory: Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Vanessa Bohns, Vanessa, thank you for joining me for this conversation. 

Vanessa: Thanks so much for having me. I’m looking forward to it.

Mallory:So tell us just a little bit more about you and what has inspired your interest in influence.

Vanessa: Sure. So I am an experimental social psychologist and I’ve been studying social influence for about 15 years now. And the way I studied social influence is pretty different from how other people tend to study it. So most people who study social influence look at what are the ways that I can get people to do things, hat are the ways that I can influence someone or gain influence myself. I’m really interested in what our intuitions are about influence and whether they’re accurate or not.

So do we know the best way to influence people or are we way off when we try to guess the best way to, to ask someone to do something? For example, do we recognize the influence that we have over other people all the time? And so I tend to run studies where I have people explicitly express their intuitions about influence and then go out and test them. And then we look at whether those intuitions line up with what actually happens. 

Mallory: Was there something that happened in your life or in your professional experience that inspired you to look at influence through this particular angle? 

Vanessa: So when I was a graduate student at Columbia university, I was working with a professor named Frank Flynn and we were working on a traditional influence type study and to get data for that study, I had to go down to Penn Station in New York city and ask random strangers to fill out a survey.

And so I would go up to random people and say “Hey, I’m doing this survey. Would you please fill out this questionnaire?” and wait for them to respond. And this experience was, even though it sounds dramatic to say this, it was quite traumatic at the time. And I still have this anxiety response when I enter Penn Station, because I had this idea in my mind that this was going to be so awful that each person I approached was going to get mad at me, clearly reject me. I don’t know. I just had this idea that they were going to do something terrible, but in fact, it wound up that the people that I approached were much more willing to agree to do things for me than I expected.

When I brought the data back to the professor I was working with and we looked at it, our initial sort of hypothesis didn’t really work out. I don’t even remember many of the details of it, but when we’re looking at the data, we were both taken by the fact that so many people in New York’s Penn Station had agreed to complete this survey.

So we wondered if maybe that was actually the most interesting part of what I had done. I had this idea that it was going to be this really difficult, really awful task. But, in fact, it was easier than I expected, and I was more successful at getting people to do this thing than I expected.

And so that’s been what started the trajectory of my research ever since. And now. I run studies where I put other people in that same situation and make them go out and ask people to do things 

Mallory: Well, I love that. And I feel like in certain ways you have a really good audience right now with people who probably really see and understand all of those feelings that you have because fundraisers share so many of those experiences.

Cold calling or canvassers, or even in major donor meetings. And so you’re in good company, I’m sure. But I think what’s super interesting is that, my guess would be that fundraisers, hear that and they say “Oh, but I don’t think I’m underestimating how many people are going to actually say yes”, because at the end of the day, a hundred percent of people didn’t say yes, and that’s what they wanted.

And so it probably would be really interesting to have fundraisers use a tracking system, where they predict. How well a phone banking session is going to go and then they see how well it actually goes because that’s where they’ll see that surprise, right?

Vanessa: Definitely. I think it’s critical to track these things for a couple of reasons. One, we all have something called hindsight bias, where at once we see what happened, we assumed we would have known all along. So it’s good to put your prediction down and then see whether that prediction you had before you didn’t actually do it, aligns with what actually happened.

And then the other thing we have is something called negativity bias. And so if I were to ask you, how many people agree to this and you didn’t have the data, you would focus on more of the negatives, more of the rejections just naturally, because those are the things that are most salient, then the positives and the ‘yeses’.

And so really being deliberate about tracking all this information is really important to see if this is really happening. 

Mallory: Yes, because we make so many assumptions about how something is going to go and we predict the future and all of those ways. So I love it. And in your book, chapter three, you talk about fundraisers specifically, and you talk about some really interesting findings around influence.

I want to talk about a number of those when it comes to fundraisers, but I’m curious for you, what were some of your biggest surprises learning about influence and fundraising? 

Vanessa: I think I was most surprised by the fact that, as you said, I’ve now run studies with fundraisers and I really wasn’t sure what was going to happen because I had run all these other studies with just ordinary participants.

I thought, people who had already participated in fundraising before wouldn’t show the same biases, that they would really know what was going on. But I was surprised that they also seem to show many of the same biases and even university deans asking for millions of dollars show a lot of these same sorts of psychological biases, thinking it’s going to be more awkward than it actually is raising issues of money and things like that. 

Mallory: I love that. And university deans, just how you talk about it in your book, are so similar to nonprofit leaders in that they become accidental fundraisers. They find themselves in a position. That’s what happened to me. I found myself in an executive director role. It came with big fundraising responsibilities, and I would say the majority of fundraisers are that way. They don’t pursue a career in fundraising, but it comes with the territory of the work that they want to do.

And so your findings, everyone needs to go read this book because there’s more than we’ll be able to talk about today, but I thought it was just so appropriate. So tell us maybe at the high level, what are some of the biggest ways that fundraisers underestimate their influence?

Vanessa: So what I find when I review the literature on how our intuitions aligned with our actual influence is that we tend to have several psychological biases.

So one is that we don’t realize how much other people are paying attention to us. When we’re just going about our day, making little offhand comments and behaving in certain ways, people are actually noticing us and paying more attention to us than we tend to realize. We tend to underestimate how much people take our words to heart, how much they think about them after we’ve walked away from an interaction and how positively they tend to think about interactions that we’ve had with them.

And so that’s a second sort of bias that’s been shown. And a third one is that we underestimate how likely people are to do things for us. So we go into a lot of situations, assuming that people’s default is to say no, assuming people’s default is to argue against us when in fact people’s default tends to be agreeable.

That’s actually how people tend to behave. And we forget that when we’re the ones who need something or are asking for something. 

Mallory: Okay. And there’s so many components to this that relate to fundraising. So let’s break them apart. Let’s talk about that piece about being agreeable or saying yes. You talk a lot in the book about the challenges around saying no, and that we underestimate or overestimate how easy it would be for somebody to say no when in fact it’s quite hard. Tell us about that, because I know when you and I first talked, I was like “There seems to be this really interesting balance here between recognizing fundraisers that you have tremendous influence and what types of fundraising environments will allow you to flex that influence in the biggest way”.

And then also, how do you create environments of conscious choice for your funders when they’re making big investments? Being done in a way that feels good and positive. So just talk to me a little bit about, I know there’s a lot for us to pick apart, but talk to me a little bit about that

Vanessa: Sure. Yeah. I think on first listen, and even when I first discovered this idea that people were more willing to do things for me in Penn Station.

And then for my participants many years in, along my research program, there’s this kind of tendency to assume people are doing those things because people are nicer than we think, and they are more willing to give than we think. And that is actually true. There is research showing that. But what I actually found in my research is that there’s another component and that is a lot of times people agree to do things because they find it really hard to say no.

Especially when you’re standing in front of someone in the moment and you’re asking them to respond right there. And what happens is when we’re the ones doing the asking, we tend to be so focused on the prospect of rejection because that’s really what’s salient to us. And we know that rejection is painful.

We know that we really want to get to that yes. So it’ll be a failure on our part. And we really worry about that rejection. What we forget is that what it feels like to be on the other side is that it’s actually really hard to be the one doing the rejecting. If you flip the script and you remember a time when someone was asking you for something, it’s hard to find the words to say no. Saying no, has this risk involved, it potentially could damage the relationship. It could potentially suggest that you don’t care about this person. Because as much as they might’ve thought it could suggest that you’re not a friendly giving person. So a lot is going on in that other person’s head that makes it really hard for them to say no and it makes it a really uncomfortable situation.

Especially when we’re face to face, we tend to forget this. And one of the other mistakes that people often make is not realizing how much of a difference it makes when we ask for something in face to face versus over email, for example, in a situation where it’s a lot easier for someone to think about whether they want to say yes or no, and then come to that decision more mindfully and more thoughtfully.

Mallory: Okay. So there’s two things that I think are really interesting about what you just said, many more than two, but I’ll focus on two, because in the book you also talk about that piece around how the person rejecting the other person feels or the fears that they have you also talk about in your book the fact that funders, when they’re asked for a bigger amount than they maybe have the capacity to give, they’re not offended or upset, they’re actually incredibly flattered. So I think what you’re saying is that they might have some stress reaction around the feelings for the fundraiser, but in terms of how they feel about the fundraiser, it’s still positive.

Vanessa: That’s right. And this actually came out of some of my conversations with the university deans, who, as you said, tend not to be trained in fundraising. They’re put in these situations they never thought they’d be in where they’re asking for millions of dollars. And they can’t imagine asking someone for this amount of money.

And they actually think if they ask for too much, it’s going to offend the other person. And they’re going to bulk at this request. But in talking to these university deans, the thing that I learned was that they quickly discovered that people aren’t offended when they get asked for lots of money, they feel good.

They feel almost flattered that you think that they can offer that much. And it’s also a very different cultivated situation, right? If you’re asking for these large amounts of money, it’s not like you’re asking someone on the street who has no connection to that organization. A lot has been done in advance to get you in that room with that person. And they’re ready for that ask. And then it’s about figuring out the number. And so I found that to be really interesting, this idea that “Oh, someone might be offended because I asked for too much”, when actually in many cases they’re flat. 

Mallory: Okay. Yeah. I love that too. And I’ve been saying that for awhile, but you saying that is going to go a lot farther. So I really appreciate that insight and that finding. So I’m curious, thinking about a fundraiser who has a major gift and wants to ask the donor for a major gift. If they were to, for example, send an email, because we know that doesn’t give them as much influence, but it gives the other person the time to reflect on the invitation and the emails, just to invite them to a meeting, to talk about their giving for the year or future years. And so then when they’re in that meeting, I think what I also hear you saying, is there’s this other level of permission that’s been given then to make a face to face ask. A

nd so tell me from your perspective, when you say, yeah, that’s an effective fundraising strategy to focus on alignment, give folks the opportunity to lead to a comfortable in person interaction. And then for the fundraiser to recognize that once you are in that face-to-face interaction, you have the permission to use your influence, to inspire and encourage folks to invest in a big way.

Vanessa: I do think that’s a strategy that can work. And I like the idea of mix and match with these different modes of communication. Because especially in cases, when you’re asking for large amounts of money this is not a one and done situation. You don’t send an email and it’s done, you don’t have one meeting and it’s done.

And so you do wind up corresponding in these different ways, right? You have in person meetings, sometimes you have phone calls, sometimes you exchange emails and it’s important to recognize what each of those things is doing and how they either put the other person on the spot or not. And so one way, as you suggested, is to prepare someone for that in-person meeting.

So now they’ve read the email. Clearly, if they’re inviting you to an in-person meeting, you’ve gotten past the first step and they must have wanted to have that meeting. And so I do think that opens the door to be a little bit more open in that meeting. It gives you that permission. Another way to mix and match the modes would be to have an in-person meeting ,where you talk and you make your pitch because in-person, you can be much more influential, there’s a lot more trust and social connection. We know there’s a lot that goes on in-person interactions. You can’t recreate a regular. But then follow up over email. You don’t put them on the spot to make any decisions in that meeting, but instead the details are ironed out through another mode of communication.

But this idea that I will have some in-person interaction that cultivates that trust, where we have these conversations and some email communication where people feel a little more comfortable pushing back and coming up with an arrangement that they feel most comfortable with. 

Mallory: Okay. I love that. And I’m curious, there’s been this sort of growing wave of technology around videos that can be inserted into emails and even some that are tied specifically to making asks, whether that’s for a favor or fundraising. I’m curious, is there any data yet about the impact video has on influence?

Vanessa: So it’s funny that you should ask that because my former graduate student, I just had a paper published on the question of where video and the phone fits amongst these kinds of modes of communication between in-person and email.

And what we find is that, as you might suspect, it’s somewhere in the middle. And we actually look at situations where you just offer a video message, which is similar to inserting a video so that it’s not that synchronous, like a zoom call type of thing. We also look at zoom calls where it’s more like a back and forth synchronous kind of conversation.

What we find is it really doesn’t matter. All of that gives some additional information to the other person that makes them more likely to agree. So it does give you more influence, not as much as in person, but more so than just a plain old email. And so it does seem to add something to actually either pick up the phone or do a zoom call or insert a video in.

Mallory: And it makes sense especially, the video piece is newer, but phone banking has been around for quite some time. So it makes sense that you think about everything from fundraising to political organizing. That sort of the tiers of ways that these organizations have been using influence from canvassing and for everyone who’s oh, it’s not uncomfortable saying no.

I Think about the amount of times that you pretended to be on a phone call walking past a canvasser. That’s I think that’s something that really indicates how uncomfortable we are saying no to folks, right? at that moment. 

Vanessa: Exactly. And there’s actual research on this. It’s some of my favorite research where they set up two different booths on a street and they measured how far away people walked from these boosts.

One had a person behind it asking for things. One just had pamphlets, right? So you didn’t actually have to say no to a person. And when they measured, how far away people walked much farther away from this booth where they might have to say no to another person. It is incredibly uncomfortable to have to say NO.

Mallory: Wow. That is fascinating. I went to the University of Michigan for undergraduate, and one of my favorite canvassers would hand out flyers saying, will you throw this away for me? But the garbage cans were pretty far away and you would get the flyer and you’d be like Wait, how do you do that? You got this into my hand so swiftly.

In relation to this ‘no’ component. You talk about some really interesting components in your book around the relationship between influence and whether or not somebody takes that action again, whether they said no, or yes, the first time and the different components of that.

This is a super relevant conversation to fundraisers because there’s a lot of conversation around lapsed donors and donor retention. I think a lot of assumptions made in our space around “This person said no last time,so we shouldn’t ask them again”. So talk to me a little bit about that component of what you’ve heard.

Vanessa: That’s right. And this is another case where we studied people’s intuitions about what happens once someone says no to you. And we looked at what actually happens when someone says no to you the first time. And so what we did is we brought participants into a lab study and we had them go out and ask people for two things.

So the first thing they asked them for was just something simple “Will you mail a letter?” And then the second thing was “Will you loan me your phone?”, or another sort of simple type of favor? And we varied the favors. And what we did is we said “If someone says, no, how likely do you think they would be to say yes to your follow-up requests?”.

And most people thought, once someone says, no once, they’re going to say no again, right? “This is the type of person who says no, so I don’t anticipate that they’re going to change their answer to a second request”. But then when they actually went out and asked people two things, the people who said no, the first time, we’re actually more likely to say yes to the second request, because I actually felt pretty bad saying no the first time.

So rather than being an indicator that this is a permanent state that this person is never going to agree to my request, in fact, it was an indicator that actually, it was a situational circumstantial thing. “In that moment, I couldn’t do that thing, maybe I didn’t have something to give”, right? Then maybe I didn’t have time to talk right then, but that didn’t mean that, down the road, I wouldn’t be willing to go ahead and revisit that conversation, or I might actually have more time or more to give later on.

Mallory: Okay. I love this because this relates to this other piece that you talk about in the book that I love. You talk about how difficult it is for us to say no. And then you rightly assume where the reader’s mind might take them then, which is that I never want to ask for anything again, because I’m making folks uncomfortable saying no, but then you say, but actually the thing is it’s not just about people feeling awkward saying no, it’s that they really want to say yes. And that it actually contributes to this critically important part of our identity to say yes. So talk to me about that.

Vanessa: That’s right. I do think when it comes to things like seeking donations and especially things like asking for help and asking for favors, the last thing I want the takeaway to be is that “Oh, I don’t want to ask for things because people find it so hard to say no”.And in fact, what winds up happening is that in the moment, people don’t want to say no, because at the end of the day, we want to be good people. We want to feel like good people. We want to look like good people. We want to maintain relationships. 

So there are all sorts of things underlying that difficulty saying no htat are actually quite positive and keep us bound with other people. So once we agree and that moment, even if it is because we’re put on the spot and feel like we can’t find the words to say, no, we feel pretty good. Because we just demonstrated that we’re good people who help other people. We showed somebody else that we’re helpful and we help somebody out.

And that just feels good. We get what’s called a warm glow from helping. I definitely don’t think it means that we shouldn’t be asking people for things. In fact, it just means that people are more likely to agree than we tend to think. And then pretty quickly after they agree, even if they just couldn’t say no, they’re going to feel good about it. And then we’re going to walk away feeling good. 

Mallory: I love that. And I think that’s such a good and important reframe for fundraisers. I want to just hit on one other piece of the fundraiser influence component, which is gender. You talk about women and those who identify as women in particular and the implications, or additional assumptions perhaps made about asking for things. So talk to me because 75% of those who work in the nonprofit sector are women. And so I think there are some pretty big sector wide implications as we see how the data shows up for women in particular. 

Vanessa: Yeah. You may be familiar with some of Linda Babcock’s research. So she has that book Women Don’t Ask, which was a pretty popular book. And one of the things she talks about in that book is that we don’t feel comfortable asking for things in many cases, but we do feel comfortable asking if it’s on behalf of somebody else, if it fits this almost communal prescriptive idea, that we are helpful people who are asking on behalf of another person.

Then that makes us feel a little bit more comfortable. And so that’s one way to think about it. Another thing I find in my research, I actually don’t find gender differences and how likely people are to agree to help you, if you’re a woman or to donate, if you’re asking as a woman, I also don’t find differences and our predictions of how likely it is that we’ll get a yes if we’re women, everyone seems to underestimate whether we’ll get a yes, but one of the important things to keep in mind is that the fact that we underestimate, whether we’re going to get a yes as women, it can mean something different than for men. 

So women are very concerned about rocking the boat and if they feel like they’re going to get a rejection, they may be less likely to ask. That might contribute to this discomfort we feel with asking. I think it is especially important to know that actually your ideas about how you’re going to be judged for asking, your ideas about how likely it is to be rejected, right? If you ask might be off and likely the story is much more positive than you think. I think that can be especially empowering for women who will already come into it. Sometimes not wanting to rock the boat and ask.

Mallory: Okay. I really appreciate those components. So before we shift into talking about donors and funders and their influence, what are the top three takeaways you would want fundraisers to really hear and understand around their influence in terms of moving money into their organization?

Vanessa: I think number one is not to assume that other people’s default is to say no. To go into situations assuming people do want to feel like helpful people. They do want to be helpful. And I think going into it with that attitude and assuming actually many people will say yes is a really helpful sort of empowering thing.

Another really important takeaway is how you ask. It’s a lot, you establish more trust and more social connection when you ask through richer media, whether it’s in person or even over the phone or over zoom, but it also makes it harder for someone to say no, or figure out the nitty gritty in ways that they feel comfortable.

And so it’s a good idea. Just mix and match some of these media so that you’re utilizing the advantages of rich media. You’re developing that relationship, that trust, that social connection, but you’re also not putting people on the spot. So you’re also giving them some space and utilizing email as well. 

Mallory: I love that, hank you so much. I think there are so many helpful tools for fundraisers to take away around this topic. So I really appreciate all your work in this area. So let’s just wrap up with having you tell folks where they can find you and I’ll make sure there are links for the book and everything below.

And then if you’d like to highlight a nonprofit that is near and dear to your heart, we love to invite our guests to do that as well.

Vanessa: So you can find me at my website, which is www.vanessabohns.com. And you can also follow me on @profbohns on Twitter and @profbohns at Instagram. Of course, the book can be found anywhere, Amazon, your local bookshop, et cetera.

And actually I would love to highlight a scientific organization that I love, which is the Open Science Framework they’ve made really big strides in fixing the replicability crisis that we’ve been having in psychology. And I think they do a lot of important work for science and making sure that all the kinds of research findings that I’m talking to you about now are actually replicable and people can check the data and that there’s not a bunch of bunk science going around. So that would be a great organization to donate. 

Mallory: Amazing! Thank you. We’ll connect folks with them as well. Thank you so much for joining me today and for having this conversation. 

Vanessa: Thank you so much.