02:15 Mallory: Hello and welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Margaux Joffe. Margaux, welcome to What the fundraising. 

02:25 Margaux: Hi Mallory. Thanks for having me on your podcast. 

02:29 Mallory: I’m really excited for our conversation today. It’s a topic that is personally important to me and I think so important for the nonprofit sector. So why don’t we just start with you sharing a little bit about your background and what brings you to the work that you’re doing today. 

02:44 Margaux: Yeah, so I know when you first reached out to me, I was like, are you sure you want to talk to me because I’m not a fundraising expert. But then once we chatted a little bit, there was just so many juicy subtopics in there that I’m excited to get into. But just briefly, my name’s Margaux. I use she/her pronouns, and I’m currently based in Seattle, Washington. And I am a former advertising marketing producer, turned disability inclusion consultant, and I focus a lot on neurodiversity and ADHD in the workplace, how can we create more inclusive workplaces for minds of all kinds. I’m the founder of a platform called Kaleidoscope Society, which is designed to be a resource for adult women with ADHD. 

03:24 Mallory: Thank you for sharing all of that. And I know we’re going to get into some, as you said, really juicy topics here, but I’m wondering if we could start, would you define neurodiversity for folks who might be coming to this conversation and could use some framing of some of the terms we might use?

03:41 Margaux: So, neurodiversity, it is actually a relatively new term because it was coined in the 1990s by an Australian sociologist, Judy Singer. And neurodiversity, it’s short for neurological diversity in plain language, meaning that there’s a diverse range of human brains in our species. So, it’s the range of neurocognitive functioning that exists in our species. And it’s a really powerful term because it’s also a paradigm shift in understanding that there’s a range of what we understand to be normal in terms of how brains function.

And so, examples of neurodivergent conditions that you may know of could be ADHD, dyslexia, autism, tourette’s, OCD, et cetera. So, anything that falls outside of we as society considers quote unquote normal or typical is seen as neurodivergent. 

04:36 Mallory: Hmm. And you mentioned the word accessibility. When you think about neuro divergence and accessibility in the workplace, what does that look like, just to give folks some foundation for why we’re talking about this today? 

04:51 Margaux: Accessibility, I mean, in simple terms means that anyone is able to access and use a thing, whether that’s a product, a service, a piece of content. And so, I had the opportunity to work for several years on an accessibility team in tech. And there’s the World Wide Web consortium, which has created industry standard guidelines around what accessibility is. And there’s all different guidelines. Including guidelines around cognitive accessibility. It’s a very lengthy and complicated, so we won’t get into all the details on that. Simply put, its thinking about when you’re creating a product, a service, a process, whatever you’re creating or designing for your business, making sure you’re designing it so that everyone can use it, and that includes the 1 billion people in the world that have some type of disability.

05:39 Mallory: Hmm. And I remember when we first talked, I have ADHD myself, and this podcast episode is not a diagnostic by any means, but I know folks are coming here who both have ADHD themselves, think they might have ADHD since I’ve started to talk more publicly about it, I’ve certainly gotten a tremendous amount of messages from people who are wondering about that for themselves. And then every leader who’s listening to this, who’s running a nonprofit, who’s managing a team, this should be an important topic for them as well in terms of how they’re making their organization and their work accessible to a range of neurodivergent community members, staff members, volunteers. One of the things that you said when we first talked that I just thought was so helpful to understand ADHD in particular, some of the intersection of tendencies that people with ADHD exhibit and how they show up in the workplace, and perhaps particularly in the social justice workplace. So, can we talk about that a little bit? 

06:48 Margaux: Yeah. ADHD and social justice and accessibility, there’s so much to talk about. The first thing that I think will be really interesting for anyone listening is that there’s actually been some recent studies that have shown that people with ADHD tend to have higher justice sensitivity. And I’ve seen this too in my work, speaking with hundreds of women with ADHD, that people with ADHD tend to be more sensitive to unfairness, injustice, things that they see that just seem wrong out in the world. And many of them feel compelled to take action and make a difference. And I think that is one of the beautiful qualities of people with ADHD is this big heartedness and desire to do the right thing and help others. But we have to be careful, right? Because sometimes we can go down a rabbit hole and put everyone ahead of our and not take care of ourselves. So, it’s a balance there. 

07:45 Mallory: I remember when you were first talking about this with me and I was fascinated by the justice sensitivity research, and then you mentioned a little bit around how that intersects with challenges that people with ADHD might have around creating healthy boundaries and work-life balance and prioritization. And so, I’m curious if you could speak to that a little bit because as I heard you talking about it, it just gave me so much insight both into myself, but in other leaders that I’ve supported over the years as well, who have also shared their journey with ADHD. 

08:24 Margaux: I want to share a caveat before we get any further that, I’m not a doctor, so nothing that I say should be taken as medical or legal advice. This is my perspective based on my personal experiences, based on my work with the ADHD community, and as a certified accessibility professional. But for any specific medical advice, please work with your healthcare provider. So, just wanted to make sure I said that caveat. So, for many people with ADHD boundaries can be an area of challenge. So, maybe that boundaries are too porous or too loose. So, this can look like feeling compelled to say to requests, wanting to make people happy, keep the peace, not being able to create those healthy boundaries. And on the other hand, other people may struggle with boundaries that are too rigid, which can look like not being able to ask for help when you actually do need help. So, for many people with ADHD it can be helpful to work on how to create healthy boundaries, where you are able to ask for help when you need it, not take on too much and maintain a manageable workload so that you’re not constantly stressed and run down and running yourself ragged. And I know from personal experience because that’s something that I used to struggle with, especially in my twenties, with people pleasing tendencies and saying yes to everything. And I think that’s rooted in a couple things. For some of us, it can be rooted in self-esteem issues. You know, I was undiagnosed ADHD until I was 29, and so I had developed some coping mechanism to get through life and people pleasing was one of those coping mechanisms to try and overcompensate for mistakes that I would make or information I would forget, and I felt like I always had to be overcompensating or working twice as hard to get the same results. Learning how to create healthy boundaries is something that has been really important for me.  And when you tie in the social justice piece, for those of us with ADHD, when we’re very passionate about something, we can get hyper-focused on it and we can want to give 200% of ourselves to a cause, to a project we’re working on or to a relationship because with ADHD there could be challenges in regulation, regulation of our attention, regulation of our behaviors, impulse control. Dr. Hollowell talks about ADHD and he says it’s like having a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes. We have a very powerful brain, but sometimes we have challenges regulating and controlling it. It’s actually not that we have a deficit of attention. It’s an impairment in how attention is regulated in our brain. So, it can be 0 to 100 either in attention, you’re having trouble paying attention, or maybe you’re hyper-focusing. Hyper-focusing can be a strength when we learn how to channel it in a way that serves us and know how to reign it in as well.

11:18 Mallory: Wow, I love that Ferrari engine, bicycle brake. I have often said that I’m the cart and the horse, that I feel this. This real tension between driving myself forward at lightning speed and then struggling to reign myself back in and this sort of tug and pull, and so that visual is really helpful for me to think about. And we’re in a moment right now where I think there are conversations happening about some of these sector-wide patterns and the way they are harming nonprofit leaders and fundraisers that wasn’t there 10 years ago when I was in the trenches as an executive director. This is a sector that prides itself on how much they can do with how little, like there are these elements of lack of boundaries that are medals of honor in this sector a little bit. And I’m curious what your thoughts are on something like that, like for a leader of an organization understanding this around sort of the neuro divergence of their team members that are likely there and how they support a healthy team by perhaps shifting some of these cultural expectations around don’t have boundaries, live and breathe this work, et cetera. 

12:42 Margaux: Yeah. You brought up such a great topic, which is unfortunately and ironically, sometimes non-profit organizations can actually be toxic work environments. And that wasn’t something that I thought about when I was in college. Because you think about, oh, this is a mission driven organization. So, we assume that the experience of working in those organizations reflect the outward mission of the organization. And sometimes that’s not the case. And I don’t want to say that in a blanket statement. Obviously, all nonprofit organizations are different and there’s some wonderful nonprofit organizations out there to work for. But in speaking to many people, I know that I have worked at various nonprofits, sometimes there is this pressure of working beyond eight hours a day, giving so much of yourself and sacrificing salary or benefits, even your work-life balance and your mental health to make sure you’re serving the mission of the organization. And sometimes people can put pressure on themselves because it’s like, well, I don’t feel like I can ask for more money or take more time off. If I do, I’m not really down for the cause. So, there’s this kind of pressure to prove like how committed you are in like sacrificing yourself for the cause. And for people with ADHD and also neurodivergent folks more generally, boundaries and burnout is something that is a common challenge in general in all workplaces. And so, nonprofit environments can be a place where people can experience burnout more quickly because of the lack of boundaries, because of these expectations that you’re just going to give, give, give, and if you don’t, then you don’t really care about the cause. And sometimes some nonprofits can be understaffed and people are expected to wear many hats and there may not be clear roles and responsibilities, and people are expected to take on more and more. So, it can be kind of a combination of all those things where folks can burn out. 

14:35 Mallory: You said something before around, you used a different term than this, but it activated in my mind this symptom that we have in the sector around shiny object syndrome and the bouncing from, especially around fundraising, looking for these silver bullets that are going to transform the way that we fundraise. And part of that is in response to the scarcity mindset that blankets the sector. But there’s something that you had said earlier that made me think that it might be also in relation to just thinking about the numbers of people, the percentage of people that have neurodivergence, that they mostly work in an environment that is not creating accessibility for them. Are there suggestions that you have around how organizations in the sector can think about supporting fundraisers across the board? Because I have a feeling, what acts as support for people with ADHD and people who have neurodivergence more generally would still be beneficial for everyone. I’m curious what you think about that. 

15:41 Margaux: First and foremost, I would say if you are running any type of organization, assume that there are people with disabilities on your team unless your organization is three people and then you know for a fact that they don’t have any type of disability. But if you’re running a larger organization or business, assuming that there are people with disabilities on your team, even if they’re not visible or not apparent, more than half of disabilities are non-apparent. Folks may have learning disabilities, neurodivergent conditions, they may have a chronic illness, or any type of disability that they may have not chosen to disclose. Cause we know there’s lots of stigma in the workplace around disclosing a disability, a lot of fear there. Instead of waiting for employees to disclose and waiting for employees to request accommodations, just assume that there may be people with disabilities in your workplace and think about how can you create your workplace to be accessible. And there’s different frameworks out there in terms of evaluating your organization for accessibility. One of them is the disability equality index from disability in which is kind of like a questionnaire that you can go through with your organization looking at accessibility from all different angles from recruitment of talent and employees to the digital accessibility of your systems, to the diversity of your suppliers. Do you have suppliers with disabilities that you’re working with, thinking about disability inclusion holistically across your organization. And then you can also ask for feedback from your employees and your customers around accessibility and how you can make your organization more inclusive. To get specifically about neurodiversity in ADHD, something that’s helpful and important is making sure that employees have a job role that is aligned to their strengths and to their interests especially for ADHD. Finding that job fit or job alignment is something that is super important for people with ADHD because if it’s a job that is not aligned to their strengths and it’s not something they’re interested in, it’s going to be very challenging for them to be successful in that role and to stay motivated. So, for all of us with ADHD, and I know this has been true for me, like we have to find jobs that we are interested in and that we care about to be something that is going to be sustainable long term. All managers can have those conversations with their direct reports, really just to understand your unique strengths, what are the areas where you need support, and how can I support you. And that benefits everyone because everyone has strengths and everyone has areas where they need support in the workplace. Beyond that, managers can be very clear about expectations, roles and responsibilities, deadlines being clear, concise, and concrete about what’s expected of your team, when things are due. That can go a long way, especially in an environment like nonprofits or startups or any of these environments where there’s always so much going on, there’s always so much going on, there’s always so much to do. So, reminding your team and being clear, communicating those important deadlines and expectations in writing can really help folks with ADHD and really anyone with any type of executive functioning impairment. Because with ADHD and other conditions like dyslexia or if someone has long COVID or traumatic brain injury, executive functioning can be impaired. And this has to do with planning, prioritization, organizing, getting started on tasks, sustaining attention on a task, finishing a task, anything that can help with structure planning, organization, helping people stay organized. 

19:09 Mallory: You hit on something that I think would be really interesting for us to explore a little bit. I’d be curious about your thoughts on this. So, in fundraising, one of the things that is really complicated is the relationship building is not linear, and I think about sequencing and challenges around sequencing with neurodivergence and in myself. And sometimes the lack of clarity around a sequence, I can lose it in there. And with fundraising, one of the ways in which this is really challenging is that all donors and funders behave differently. And so, we work really hard to systematize as much as possible. We’ve named this moves management system. But because of the uniqueness of funders and donors, they have become these very big buckets that don’t give a lot of clarity and don’t help fundraisers actually prioritize. Because if you have 500 donors that are in the cultivation phase, and some of them have been in there for two weeks, and some of them have been in there for two months, and some have been there for 12 months, but they don’t necessarily have this very clear ladder of engagement for folks. And then I think for fundraisers, what ends up happening is that they end up focusing on acquisition like new donors, because that’s where they sort of understand the cadence of communication. It feels like it’s more controllable, but we know that lifetime value of a donor is really important, it’s much less expensive to retain a donor then to get a new donor, and yet we see this pattern over and over and over again. And I think it might be related to some of what we’ve been talking about. I’m curious about your opinion about that. 

20:55 Margaux: That’s really interesting and you have much more expertise on the details of how that shows up day-to-day. But what stood out to me when you were talking is, the role that novelty plays in interest and motivation, especially for people with ADHD. People with ADHD have an interest based nervous system, and so the things that can be very motivating are things like novelty, like is it new, different bright, shiny object, is it challenging, like is there some problem to solve or really good with problem solving, sense of urgency, a sense of urgency, is it time sensitive. All of these factors can be very stimulating for the ADHD brain. And so, when you were talking about the tendency to want to acquire new donors versus continuing to cultivate an existing relationship, I don’t know the details of those specific situations, but it could be something around simply the interest kind of wears off because maybe you’ve known this person for several years. And that can come into play like in relationships too, in our lives, in our friendships, in our romantic relationships, in our jobs. People get bored and then they want to quit the job, they want to break up with the partner. And so, I think that that’s where the self-awareness and the understanding and the education around ADHD can just go a long way for folks so that they are able to sustain those relationships with the people that they really care about and the jobs that they actually do really care about, and finding ways to keep it exciting and stimulating and new. And there’s ways to do that. Finding ways to create the novelty and the challenge and the urgency within those existing relationships. 

22:36 Mallory: I love that. And I am curious from an organizational perspective, like if you were speaking to a leader of an organization that was managing a team of fundraisers, what are some group challenges or frameworks, even tools and task management systems that you think would be helpful in supporting their neurodivergent staff members to stay motivated, take certain actions, or be able to prioritize an action that doesn’t have as clear or as quick of a feedback loop?

23:14 Margaux: I think the answer is just in how you stated that. So, first being very clear about the priority, whether it’s for the month, for the quarter, for the week, for the year, what are the priorities and what are the overall goals of the department or the group so that everyone’s clear that they’re all working towards the same goal. And then helping the team break that larger goal down into smaller milestones or smaller chunks. Chunking is a strategy that is recommended with ADHD because when we just have this one large project, like let’s say you’re writing a book or you have this big project you have to do and you have this one big deadline, that can be very overwhelming for folks and they don’t know where to start. Taking the first step can be the hardest part. So, supporting your team in breaking down this larger project into smaller, shorter milestones. So, maybe it’s like every week there’s a goal that needs to be hit or every two weeks, and then there’s some sort of reward or recognition built into that as well. So, it keeps it fun and then people know like, this is the next thing I need to be working on. But of course, doing it in a way that’s not micromanaging or patronizing. Thinking about it like this is something that’s going to help the whole team. Helping the team with breaking down the big goal into what are those shorter sprints or shorter milestones, that would be one strategy to consider. What I mentioned before about within the team, just understanding the strengths of the different team members because some folks may really struggle with administrative work, but there may be some other folks on the team that are really good with administrative work and operations type of work. So really understanding kind of the strengths and the challenges of different people on the team, and then casting accordingly so that everyone is in a role that’s best suited for them. Understanding that everyone has different processing styles. Processing styles also are sometimes referred to learning styles in the education context. For an example, some people are very conceptual, so in order to be engaged or understand a task or an assignment, they really need to know the context. They need to know how these fits into the bigger picture and what’s the why, why are we doing this. 

25:23 Margaux: So, I’ve seen a lot of people with ADHD are very conceptual, and this can come across as oppositional sometimes to managers because you, Mallory may be giving me assignment and then in order for me to really understand it, I may say, well, okay, so why are we doing it this way, or why do you want me to do it this way. Because that’s really just going to help me understand what I need to do. But that may come across that I’m questioning you or I’m questioning why I have to do it. So, I would say, understanding if folks are conceptual, they may need to ask a lot of questions, they may want to know the why behind something. It doesn’t mean that they’re being oppositional. In most cases it means that they’re just really trying to understand and process. Some folks are verbal processors, meaning that in order to understand and get the information they need to talk it out. So, if you just send out a big long email, they’ve read it but in order to really get it that they need to talk it out to understand. Some folks are more auditory, so it’s helpful to say something in a meeting so that they can hear the information by listening, and this could also be helpful for some folks that maybe they’re dyslexic or they have some other learning disability where reading all the information in writing on email may not be the most accessible format. Some folks are kinesthetic or tactile, like they really just like to be hands on and get into the system and be able to demo it, and poke around on the buttons and figure it out themselves, and then have the questions and want to talk to the boss. So, just understanding that everyone has different learning or processing styles. And so how that all comes together is when you’re working with a team where there’s diverse people on the team. If there’s something important you want to communicate, send it in writing, say it verbally in a meeting, give folks a space where they can ask questions and talk it out loud. Using the multiple modes of communication so you can make sure that your message is getting across to all different types of people.

27:04 Mallory: Those are some great tips and something I wish I had heard probably 20 years ago. Because that contextual learner piece I struggled a lot in school when I was younger. I didn’t think until college even that I was potentially smart at all. And a lot of it was because of the lack of context given in K through 12 education. In addition to having a number of different learning disabilities and not being in an environment that really supported that. So, I really appreciate hearing those and we’ll drop a resource below too for folks. I know we’re going to transition and talk about neuro divergence in the granting and funding side of things in a minute as well. But before we jump into that, I’m wondering if you have any final things for folks who perhaps are sitting in a nonprofit right now. They are currently identify as having a form of neurodivergence and are figuring out how to advocate for themselves inside their organization, whether or not they’re wanting to share the specificity of how their brain works. Do you have any suggestions for that? 

28:18 Margaux: First, I would recommend leaning into professional support and hopefully if you’re working for an organization, you have health insurance and access to benefits. Whether that’s working with your primary care provider or your therapist, to talk with them about some of the specific challenges you may be facing. And most times they may be able to talk with you about ideas for accommodations or even whether or not it’s a formal accommodation. But what are the things that you can do to support yourself in the workplace? And sometimes they will even be able to write a letter that you can share a quick story. When I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 29, in my first role after getting diagnosed, I entered into the job as a freelance contractor. So, I didn’t disclose my ADHD because I came into the role thinking I’m going to be here for three months and then I’m going to move on to my next freelance project. So, this is not going to be a long-term relationship. But then they ended up offering me a full-time job and it really worked out and I decided to take this role. But I still didn’t disclose at that point because my role at the time, I was working as head of production in a marketing department for a tech company. And I was worried that the stereotypes out there about ADHD would give people preconceived notions about my ability to perform in that role. And it wasn’t until later I decided to disclose to my manager. And I was really nervous about it at the time because I had never gone through that experience in a job. And I remember with my therapist, we had a lot of discussion about it. She made some recommendations of things that would help that I didn’t even feel that I had the right to ask for. And that’s part of it too, is realizing that you’re not asking for too much. If you’re asking for an adjustment that’s going to help you show up your best in your job, you have the right to ask for that.

30:01 Margaux: There’s the Americans with Disabilities Act that was passed in 1990 that stipulates any organization with more than 15 employees is required to provide reasonable accommodations so that employees with disabilities can perform in their role. And I remember the thing that I was requesting was I wanted to work from home one day a week, which now seems like not a big deal because so many folks are working remotely. At the time, the culture of the organization was very in person. Like you had to be there in person five days a week. And so, I remember my therapist wrote me a letter that I ended up not even having to give it to my manager, but I remember I printed it out and I like had it in my back pocket just in case. And she also gave me some visualization exercises to do where I visualized having that conversation with my manager and visualized a positive outcome. And it sounds kind of vulnerable and maybe even like overkill, like even saying this now out loud, but at the time I was literally so nervous and even like almost shaking when I was going into having that meeting. And I think it’s important for managers and people just to understand that there still is so much fear and stigma out there. And so, it takes a lot for people to be able to open up and disclose that they have any type of disability and may have a request. So, my story, everything ended out worked out really well and I shared with my manager that I had ADHD, explained to him how it shows up for me, and explained to him that working from home one day a week would really help me a lot, be able to have a quiet space. Because we were in an open office plan. Have a quiet space to do more of the deep work that I needed to do and also help me with the overall fatigue because I had like a one to two hour commute each way commuting from San Francisco down to Silicon Valley every day on one of those tech shuttles. 

31:40 Margaux: And he was super great about it and approved my request and it ended up working out really well. Back to your question around self-advocacy, engaging professional support, whether that’s a doctor, a therapist, or even an advisor, if you have a spiritual advisor or you know, trusted mentors, somebody in your life that you trust that can provide you counsel, you can talk about what the specific challenge or barrier you’re facing. And what are specific things that you think could help you and then practice having that conversation with someone, that could be a sounding board. So that when you go to speak with your manager or you go to HR, you can feel really confident and prepared in having the conversation and understand that most times the people that you go to speak to, they’re probably not going to be an expert on your specific condition, so they might just be prepared to explain what does that mean that you have ADHD. Like, how does it show up for you? What are the specific challenges? For you at work, what are the small adjustments or things that could really help you? And then communicating how that’s going to help you do your best work within the organization. So, helping them understand, helping them help you. And I always like to say too, having ADHD, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. It’s a different brain wiring. There’s so many incredible strengths and qualities that can come with having ADHD. And there’s also challenges, right? We don’t want to just say it’s a superpower, because that really minimizes the real challenges that a lot of folks face. But it’s nothing to be ashamed of. And there’s so many incredible badass people out there that have ADHD in a variety of fields, entrepreneurs, business leaders, artists, advocates. That’s something that I’m really passionate about is shining a light on those stories so that people feel empowered and they feel proud of the unique brain that they have.

33:18 Mallory: Thank you for sharing that story about yourself and for everything that you just said. I really appreciate it.

33:30 Mallory: Okay. There is so much inside this episode that I want to highlight, but I am actually going to force myself to focus on two topic areas that I think are particularly helpful. 

Number one, I thought it was so insightful to learn some of the reasons nonprofit workers with ADHD might prefer the novelty of soliciting new funders. Number one, people with ADHD have an interest-based nervous system. Number two, new, different bright shiny objects tend to be motivational. And third, she shared that urgent problems and situations requiring time sensitive solutions are stimulating to the ADHD brain. 

And I really loved her suggestions for supporting neurodivergent staff by chunking workflows to ensure that goals and milestones are manageable and clear. Breaking large projects down with a special emphasis on that, all important, often overwhelming first step. Creating weekly goals but keeping it light to avoid the perception of micromanagement and establishing solid administrative systems and support. 

Number two, I also love Margaux’s tips for self-advocacy in the workplace.

Those included engaged professionals, therapists, mentors, trusted advisors to help brainstorm and execute strategies about how to create a supportive environment. She mentioned how you should come up with specific accommodations to propose, such as a letter from a therapist recommending specific work conditions or hours. And she reminds us to not be afraid to disclose our neurodivergence to managers if we feel safe and comfortable doing so. I love her suggestion around trying to practice with that as well, visualizing the conversations you need to have in order to secure appropriate support in the workplace. And also, if you do this, you want to be prepared to explain exactly what ADHD is and how it manifests in you. And make clear the advantages that will accrue from accommodations and enable optimal performance.

Okay. For additional takeaways and tips inside this episode, head on over to mallory erickson.com/podcast to grab the full show notes and resources. You’ll also find more information there about Margaux and our amazing sponsors Feathr. Thank you for spending this time with us today. If you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you would give it a rating and review, and share it with a friend. I’m so grateful for all of my listeners and the good, hard work you’re doing to make our world a better place. And if you miss me between episodes, stop by and say hello on Instagram under whatthefundraising_. Have a great day and I’ll see you in part two of this two-part series with Margaux.